Miscellaneous content from the original enlightened caveman. Some serious, some not. Take your chances.

Sunday, February 13, 2005

Changing Your Cover - Appearances - Part 2

They say you can't judge a book by its cover. Of course, sometimes you can, but let's put that aside for a moment. Whether or not this statement is true, the fact is that sometimes, lots of times, people will try. Furthermore, it's usually really tough to tell who's "thin slicing" based upon looks, and who's not. As I mentioned in the last post, I think there's a real value in understanding that a unknowable, but signficant, percentage of the population is actively caught up in judging books by their covers.

They're deciding who they'll be courteous with, who they'll ignore, who they'll be afraid of, and who they'll open up to, all based upon appearances (at least initially). And, for the most part, these are not rogues and lunatics. These are not simply people who occupy the fringes of the depth bell-curve, people who can and should be dismissed. An unknowable subset of these people only use this technique as a filtering process. They are open-minded and intelligent enough to modify their assessments with the acquisition of more and more data. For whatever reasons - maybe they're extremely busy, maybe they're inundated with books that bear out their preliminary cover assessments, maybe they're fearful of social situations - these people modulate their up-front human interactions using the shallowest of information. We could fault them for it. But what if, in doing so, we miss the chance for deep and meaningful concurrence? What if, and this applies most to high delta people, we limit those whom we take seriously so much that we're virtually guaranteeing ourselves loneliness? Thankfully, just as it takes infinite courage to really be a pacifist, it takes more than most people are willing to give to take a truly hard-line against appearance-based prejudice. Most folks, myself included, give in.

So, here we have an interesting question. If we acknowledge that we play along with this shallow game in certain circumstances, in lots of circumstances, then the question is how much do we give in? How much should we be willing to change our covers to plant the judgement we want in the minds of the judges, the ones we secretly despise for operating in such a way?

In America, it's pretty much accepted that our teeth matter, and not just for health reasons. How else do we explain the massive industry that is orthodontia? It's a given, once you get to even a modest socio-economic level, that your kids will get braces if their teeth are screwy. (Sure, some people are against this. But I think most folks, if they can afford it, are happy to be able to do this for their children.) The point is that getting braces is expensive and not altogether painless or trouble-free. Yet, we do it. We cower to the shallow beast of appearance anxiety and tweak our covers. The same is true with respect to fashion.

The big fads come along, and the masses get on board. One friend, a sales executive in the medical device field, works for a guy who is about 50. This guy, the owner of the company, is always teasing him about his clothes, the square-toed shoes, in particular. He says they're "trendy" and that my friend is a boob for buying into the trend. My friend, being 35, single, and quick on his square-toed feet, comes back with a witty retort:

Say whatever you want, Pal, but I'm hunting ladies at all times, and it is essential that I do not limit my selection. I'm after that long-term relationship, which means I have to sift through the market to find what I'm looking for. The fact is that the kind of girls I'm pursuing have guys after them all the time. They make the first cut based upon appearances. If I'm Mr. Traditional, like you, in cap-toed shoes and pin striped suits, I come off like a dud - an insurance salesman or an accountant. Any girl who's gonna be able to handle me for the long-haul is going to write the dud off in two seconds. So, to make the cut, I look the part. Then, once I'm in the door, the tables turn, and I'm making the next cut. Get it? So, mock my shoes all you want. Just know that when you call me at 8am on a Sunday morning and you go straight to voice mail, it's because I was up all night banging a hot chick that likes square-toed shoes. That's the only trend I care about perpetuating.

Now that is one enlightened caveman. Say what you will about the morality of his endeavors, but there's no denying that he has a good handle on how to manipulate reality to his own ends. Fashion is like that for some people. I'll wear some conservative variation on the faded-front jeans, but not because I feel I just have to be in style, but because it sends the message that I care about my appearance and that I'm aware of what's big these days. That shaves a bit off my appearance delta, you might say. And look at it this way, if my plan backfires and someone dismisses me because I'm wearing trendy clothes, then there's a good chance they'll really object to some of my more outlandish views on the world. It's a self-correcting system, I figure. Anyhow, all I'm saying is that the cover change, in itself, isn't shallow or the equivalent of selling-out. But what is?

Some would say cosmetic surgery is beyond the line. I know women with capped teeth who absolutely abhor the thought of getting breast implants. Hmm. Is there really that big of a difference? Like it or not, a female with a nice chest, all other things being equal, will get noticed more than one with a modest lower neck. And the surgery, silicon scare aside (yes, scare, as in, not real), is pretty routine and is cheaper than veneers. And what about liposuction? How many people have saddle-bags or love handles that will not go away no matter how much they diet or exercise? What's wrong with them having a doctor wave a canula to make it all disappear? Of course, the funny thing is that many proponents of cosmetic surgery will say, "But I'm doing it for myself. I just want to like what I see when I look in the mirror." Suuuure. Whatever you have to tell yourself. But again, their delusions aside, I'm saying it isn't necessarily a bad thing to want to change your cover, strictly for the benefit of the cover judgers in society.

It all comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. What do you get in terms of delta reduction, and how does it compare to the costs? This is the part many folks miss, I think. There's an aspect of the appearance delta concept that must now be revealed - the ideal appearance, the one to which ours is compared to compute the delta, the one that gets us a free ride in terms of interpersonal acceptance (in particular circumstances of interest), includes an assessment of how hard we're trying. You get points off (that is, your delta grows) if it looks like you've gone too far in changing your cover. You look needy. This is why the girls who get the massive DDD boob jobs actually diminish the field of acceptance, rather than expand it. This is why the guys who shave every hair from their bodies, for no practical reason (like say an Olympic swim competition), come off as odd-balls. This is why massive lip jobs, repeated face lifts, and botox-induced expressionless faces rarely yield the desired return on investment. These people just end up looking funny. So what to do?

If you're going to change your cover, and I'm not saying you should, you should aim to change it so that strangers can't tell. Girls, get reasonably-sized boobs for your frame. If guys really can't determine if they're real, but they break their necks trying, you've probably hit the target. Same thing for guys - if you're driving a 10-year old Toyota, you might rethink the giant fin on the back. (Yes, the appearance delta applies to cars, too. But that's another discussion.) But there's still more to this.

Another complication to consider is what people you know will think. If you conduct your inner-circle affairs with an avowed disdain for appearance-based prejudice, then you may find it hard to explain changing your cover in any dramatic way. Maybe you could acquaint your closest friends and family with your enlightened rationale for the change, and maybe they'd understand. Or maybe there's nothing you could say to make them understand. Maybe their view of you would be tainted forever. Who knows? I would simply argue that no substantial cover change should be undertaken without reflecting on this.

In the end, if we're going get what we want out of the social side of life, the side that, more than anything else, determines the tenor of our happiness, we have to decide how much we're willing to give in to this shallow, appearance-oriented game. We have to decide where the line is drawn, and we have to be careful to get what we pay for. Even if we can rationally justify the desire to improve our frail and thin lips, there isn't much to be gained by looking like a duck. Unless of course, our desire is to be accepted at the ritzy spa for desperate housewives. That, too, is another discussion entirely.

26 Comments:

Blogger alice said...

"Girls, get reasonably-sized boobs for your frame. If guys really can't determine if they're real, but they break their necks trying, you've probably hit the target."

Oh my Goodness! You've gone off the deep end. Now you are giving advice about the size of boob jobs. Are you sure you are qualified?

"In the end, if we're going get what we want out of the social side of life, the side that, more than anything else, determines the tenor of our happiness, we have to decide how much we're willing to give in to this shallow, appearance-oriented game."


Caveman, the last sentence is not logical. I can get what I want out of the social side of life without deciding how much I'm willing to give in etc. etc. etc.

And the social life you descrbe determines nothing about the tenor of my happiness. This may have something to do with age.

I'll go now.

2/14/2005 02:29:00 AM

 
Blogger alice said...

"but I'm hunting ladies at all times,

I'm after that long-term relationship, which means I have to sift through the market to find what I'm looking for.

Any girl who's gonna be able to handle me for the long-haul is going to write the dud off in two seconds.

So, mock my shoes all you want. Just know that when you call me at 8am on a Sunday morning and you go straight to voice mail, it's because I was up all night banging a hot chick that likes square-toed shoes. That's the only trend I care about perpetuating."

"Now that is one enlightened caveman."

OK. It's Monday and I do have to get to work but I just had to say a few things about your friend (please say that he isn't real or at least your friend).

He's a total sleeze ball and he's likely to end up sitting in a bar when he's fifty talking to the bartender about all the hot chicks he's laid. And the ones he's banging then won't be all that hot.
In fact, by that point there may be some money being exchanged.

You say "Well what's wrong with that? He's abided by his ethics..."
But he started out his diatribe by stating that he is after a long term realtionship. Like attracts like and no one who is capable of any kind of commitment would have anything to do with this guy.

Not a good example of your thesis, but you may try again.

2/14/2005 11:10:00 AM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

"Are you sure you are qualified?"

I know what grabs my attention and I have a real good idea of what grabs the attention of most hetero guys. A nice bust that doesn't look out of place or obviously fake a definite delta reducer. That's my opinion, anyway, which of course, is all any of this is.

"the last sentence is not logical."

Fair enough. Let me restate - to get the *most* of the social side of life, *I believe* you have to figure out how much of this game you're willing to play, and then once you do, you have to endeavor to get your money's worth. I'm not making any judgements beyond saying that dismissing the shallow aspects of social endeavors is impractical and often leads to more isolation than is necessary.

2/14/2005 04:59:00 PM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

"Are you sure you are qualified?"

I know what grabs my attention and I have a real good idea of what grabs the attention of most hetero guys. A nice bust that doesn't look out of place or obviously fake is a definite delta reducer. That's my opinion, anyway, which of course, is all any of this is.

"the last sentence is not logical."

Fair enough. Let me restate - to get the *most* of the social side of life, *I believe* you have to figure out how much of this game you're willing to play, and then once you do, you have to endeavor to get your money's worth. I'm not making any judgements beyond saying that dismissing the shallow aspects of social endeavors is impractical and often leads to more isolation than is necessary. I would say that you've done well without deliberating on this, but I can't help but wonder if you could've done even better if you did.

"And the social life you descrbe determines nothing about the tenor of my happiness."

Maybe the aspects of social life that I've described don't feed into into your happiness equation, however, that's not really what I'm saying. I'm saying that concurrence - those deep meaningful relationships in life - come directly from how you operate socially. Maybe you've been fortunate to have had good things happen in life - after all, by your own admission - your delta isn't that high. But lots of folks, admittedly probably younger folks, are still struggling with finding those concurrent relationships.

They may veer too far into shallow land and adopt an identity and interpersonal evaluation scheme that is solely based upon looks. Even if they're attractive, reality will eventually befall most of them. On the other hand, many will go in the opposite direction and despise the shallow, looks-oriented people. They, for the most part, will be high delta people, which means they're effectively painting themselves into an unnecessary corner. In both cases, the result is difficulty in achieving concurrence.

This is fuzzy stuff, so hard lines are difficult to draw.

2/14/2005 05:09:00 PM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

Not only is he real but he's one of my closest friends. He is neither a sleazeball or a jerk. He's simply revealing the basic strategy of many many many guys out there.

It works like this - you are on the hunt for the perfect girl. She will be indistinguishable simply by looks, which means you'll have to compete in a shallow world as you look for her. Even if she's as deep as they come, she's likely to have logistical problems with being open with every guy who pursues her. She will reasonably use appearances to make her first cut. You have to assume that if you're going to get anywhere.

Then, you make the cut (by looking the part) and start evaluating her on your own terms. If she turns out to be a bimbo, you shift away from considering her a long-termer and you start wondering if she's a possible immediate sex partner. If she is, and you're smart, you make sure you don't lead her on or promise anything you have no intention of delivering. But if she's willing to bed you for your square-toed shoes, why the hell not?

Girls who do not come off as bimbos or otherwise unfit for long-term consideration get the same version of my friend, but without the sexual inuendo. They get the long interview process - also known as dating. He's thougtful, respectful, and honest.

Believe me - more guys than you'll ever know have used this strategy to find their long-term mates. What's the better alternative? And remember, we're talking about guys here, so let's be realistic.

2/14/2005 05:21:00 PM

 
Blogger alice said...

OK. I've settled down, now.
Good discussion for Valentine's Day

I am trying to remember what it was like in those single days. I have heard my daughter and her friends discussing guys so I don't have to reach back that far.

There was for me and are for them a couple of classes of guys. One's that you'd love to be with, but know you'd never get. The guys you could be with (maybe) and the guys who want to be with you. What I find hilarious is that girls tend not to be that interested in the guys who want to be with them. They seem to go for that next level which is the question mark group. Can I or can't I?

The guys who want to be with them would probably be the very best choice, but so many girls seem to disregard them. They are fine as friends, great as friends
but they just don't feel that certain something which makes them want to be physical with them.

I have always wondered if this behavior is a bit of self- loathing on the part of females. "If he likes me there must be something wrong with him."

So maybe the trick is to try to look as much like that second tier as you can. Of course you must first establish which females you are likely to get and then don't act like you like them.

This has of course all been worked out subliminally for eons. Your point is to bring it to the surface and help people better decide how to spend their plastic surgery dollars?

But to take it more seriously...The problem I think you are addressing is that very "unconscousness". This occurs mostly in the very young. By the time a person is thirty a lot of this stuff has been sussed out.
Looks are no longer that big a part of making it in the world, because you have other things to bring to the table. But until that time you are trading on looks a lot.

But all is not lost there either. the kid who may not be the prom king will often look for ways to distinguish himself in other ways. Maybe go into theatre or music and learn ways of dealing with the world which will make him a more viable person. As you pointed out, the good looking people often rest on their laurels and end up as has-beens.

What pisses me off is how ruthlessly looks are exploited in the media. But then that's another subject altogether.

PS. How long does it take for a guy to figure out whether a girl is a bimbo?

2/14/2005 07:57:00 PM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

Yes, you're right - how funny for this to come up (unplanned, I assure you) on Valentine's Day. I mean it. I just sort of go where my thoughts are, which is usually a function of what I'm reading and what kinds of email and responses I'm getting online. The looks thing just seemed like a natural place to go after talking about such complexities as concurrence and consciousness. Aaaaanyway...

I am quite familiar with the phenomenon of which you speak. As one who was raised in a, shall we say, more maternal than fraternal home, I came out of the gates a slightly better than average-looking nice guy. I got locked into the "friend" role more times than I'd ever want to remember. Oh, the anguish of unrequited puppy love. Eventually, shortly after college, it all became clear to me.

I'm not sure how it happened, but I glimpsed the secret, which you've already stated. For whatever reason, if she thinks you could take her or leave her, she's drawn to you. Whamo - whole new world for me. I suddenly was gettin dates with girls who were waaay out of my league, and I ended up marrying one.

If you haven't seen it already, you should watch the movie, The Tao of Steve. It reveals the most proven guy strategy for snagging the girl that I know of. And it's funny as hell, too.

As for how long it takes to determine if a girl is a bimbo, I'd say no longer than three minutes (at least for me). Open-ended questions about whatever happens to be going on will tell the tale every time.

You should also, when you have an empty stomach, visit www.tuckermax.com and read some of his stories. This guy is a full-on Internet celebrity - I bet your daughter has heard of him. Here's the intro to his site:

"My name is Tucker Max, and I am an asshole.

I drink to excess, take no responsibility for my actions, indulge every whim, rebel against any authority, mock idiots and posers, sleep with more women than is safe or reasonable, and generally just act like a dickhead.

But, I do contribute to humanity in one very important way:
I share my adventures with the world."

I am immensely entertained by him, though I am quite certain he will exemplify sleaze bag in your estimation.

Happy Hallmark Day.

2/15/2005 12:44:00 AM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

Oh yes, and this:

"The problem I think you are addressing is that very "unconscousness". This occurs mostly in the very young. By the time a person is thirty a lot of this stuff has been sussed out.
Looks are no longer that big a part of making it in the world, because you have other things to bring to the table."

True enough, however, I don't think we can underestimate how patterns that are established in youth carry over in our adult affairs. One who trades on looks without ever having to develop a gimmick will be puzzled when desired acceptance becomes harder and harder to come by. If he or she understands the fortune that looks have bestowed, and is aware of the eventual need for depth, there's a better chance that the adjustment will be smooth.

Conversely, if one has a high appearance delta and acceptance is hard to come by from the beginning, there's a good chance that negative views about humanity and life will be the result. Accepting the reality of the situation, without judging it (since it's useless), is the best course of action. With every new advancement in gimmick will come more and more acceptance. The path of least resistance ironically becomes achievement. How bout that?

2/15/2005 12:59:00 AM

 
Blogger alice said...

"One who trades on looks without ever having to develop a gimmick will be puzzled when desired acceptance becomes harder and harder to come by."

Tough luck to those losers! They made me miserable in high school and they deserve all the pain life can dish up!

"Conversely, if one has a high appearance delta and acceptance is hard to come by from the beginning, there's a good chance that negative views about humanity and life will be the result. Accepting the reality of the situation, without judging it (since it's useless), is the best course of action. With every new advancement in gimmick will come more and more acceptance. The path of least resistance ironically becomes achievement. How bout that?"

How about impossible? People simply don't accept things without judgement. There is deep pain involved in being an outcast through no fault of your own except an accident of birth. What can and often does come out of it is poetry, art and music. The pain of life is a rich wellspring.
Let's not liposuction it away!!!
Let us learn to use it (which is what most people do).

Where is everyone?????

2/15/2005 09:55:00 AM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

Like I said - it's not easy. It's just worth it. I think it's totally possible to get over society's inherent rejection of high delta people by understanding that it's not any more their fault that they look away than it is yours to cause them to. Indeed, those who overcome this tendency to reject high delta people are to be truly admired.

Yeah - I'm puzzled by the lack of comments here, especially since yesterday was a particularly high traffic day. One of my buddies told me on the phone that he is hesitant to post comments because he knows that if he disagrees with me, I'll skewer him and he doesn't have time to mount a good counterargument. "Paleese! That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're an idiot!" And I hung up.

What is with some people?

2/15/2005 10:29:00 AM

 
Blogger alice said...

The most interesting and refined ideas come out when you disagree with someone and have to back up your argument. However it seems to be part of human nature to shy away from confrontation.

"Don't discuss politics and religion."

"Rush, I agree with everything you say. Blah Blah Blah."

Look what we get on TV. Shawn Hannity not letting anyone get a word in edgewise and then sitting back and saying "See, those liberals are all the same."

Civilized discourse is an art. One which I enjoy. A new subject for your blog?

What does BLOG stand for?

2/15/2005 11:25:00 AM

 
Blogger sirius said...

"Don't discuss politics and religion."

I tend to think that this axiom comes from the fact that politics and religion are based on core perspectives on life that are chosen irrationally and defended equally irrationally. People don't like having to accept that the core beliefs that have guided their lives may be faulty ones and most people will go to outrageous lengths to avoid having to question those beliefs.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course, but they seem to be quite rare. Most people refuse to even try to reach common ground and admit that they may be partly wrong and the person with whom they're arguing may be partly right. Case in point: Abortion. You have two extremes:

Abortion is always wrong and should be punishable by death.

and

Abortion is always ok and should be paid for by the State.

These positions are based on two different principles. The first one is:

Life begins at conception.

The second:

Life begins at birth.

Both sides would generally tend to agree that murdering innocents is wrong, but they disagree on whether or not abortion is murder. If everyone were completely rational, it would not be hard to agree that:

1.Life begins before birth. (Babies are fully developed well before the ninth month.)
2.It isn't wrong to kill a little clump of cells that doesn't even have a nervous system.
3.Abortion is unpleasant and should be avoided whenever possible but in some cases it may be the lesser evil. (objectively speaking)
4.Abortion should not be illegal, at least not in the 1st trimester or so. (due to negative consequences of said illegality)
5.Abortion should not be paid for by taxes (due to some people's moral opposition to it)

Now, I may be biased, as this is my personal opinion, but I honestly think this is the most objectively rational, moral position one can have. Most people don't think in objective terms, however, they think in emotional and religious (read: fictional) terms. Until people get rid of the irrationality that, according to EC, is wired into us,

"Don't discuss politics and religion."

will remain good advice.

2/15/2005 12:14:00 PM

 
Blogger drumgurl said...

EC, you may not think your friend is a jerk, but he is a slut and therefore would be below my dating standards. If your friend doesn't want a bimbo, then he shouldn't be one either!

I'm already engaged, but I can tell you that if I was single, I would not date a slut. I have male friends who are sluts. My present and former bandmates (all male) have mostly been sluts. They are fun to hang out with and to express my "alpha" side with, but I've never been dumb enough to date or sleep with any of them. A true self-respecting woman will hold a man to the same standards as he holds her. Besides, there is something incredibly sexy about banging an innocent (or fairly innocent) guy.

2/15/2005 12:17:00 PM

 
Blogger sirius said...

RF,

Why is EC's friend a slut? Because he likes sex? He's not shallow, he is looking for someone to actually be with, he just takes advantage of the opportunities that come along (hot females).

As long as he ain't got no diseases and he's not lying to these girls, I don't see anything wrong with what he's doing; I think it's quite healthy. In fact, I would wonder about a guy who didn't do what he did.

2/15/2005 12:34:00 PM

 
Blogger drumgurl said...

Sirius,
He's a slut because he's slept with a lot of people. At least I think that's what a slut is.

There's nothing *wrong* with what he's doing. Believe me, I am not the morality police. What bothers me is that this guy expects to commit to a woman who hasn't slept with lots of men, and that is a double standard.

I myself have a healthy sex drive. But I have been wise to control it in order to avoid a bad reputation. I expect a man to be able to do the same thing. I mean, I really had to suffer! Anyone who expects me to curb my appetite should curb his as well. Plus, having a guy who is easy will make me look bad.

I do love your name, btw. You probably get sick of Potter fans saying that.

2/15/2005 02:36:00 PM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

Yeah, there's so much at stake with politics and religion that truth, for most people, takes a backseat to the status quo. That's why it's nice when you find people who can detach enough to really contemplate these matters.

Red, you're right, my buddy's a slut. Can't argue that. And I can see why a smart girl would find that unacceptable in a potential suitor. Yes, there's a double standard, but, for many people, my buddy included, it's less about guys wanting to be able to do one thing and girls being able to do another than it is about the notion that girls who are sluts are usually emotional whack-jobs. See my post on Charlotte Simmons - the comments delve into this.

2/16/2005 02:06:00 AM

 
Blogger alice said...

Redneck is right. Your friend is a slut. I think I called him a sleaze ball. What the heck is he doing at his age banging hot chicks? (such an adolescent term for a woman)

You yourself said it doesn't take that long to separate the bimbos out. But I guess he just has to take them to bed to be absolutely sure. This guy is not looking for a partner. And you know where you'll find him when he's fifty...

You Caveman are the one with the double standard. You call this guy enlightened while he is following the most ancient urge in the book...to plant his seed in as many places as possible. The only problem is that the seed ain't takin' 'cause of birth control.

And then there's the "wack-job" comment. Maybe, just maybe if men weren't such.... women wouldn't be such..... You say this friend of yours is honest with his prey. Does he say something like this to them? "Hey baby! I think you're kind of a bimbo, but you're good looking enough, especially from the back so that when I leave with you my friends will be impressed. You will definitely not be hearing from me next week, but could I screw your brains out tonight? Are we clear on this and do you have any questions?"

My guess is that he doesn't go near being honest.

Where the heck is Carey Grant? Can you ever imagine him saying "banging a hot chick"?

2/16/2005 09:28:00 AM

 
Blogger sirius said...

Jesus Christ, Alice, take your meds!!!

You have no understanding whatsoever of men, it seems.
From what EC has said, his friend is displaying completely normal, healthy and common behaviors.

"What the heck is he doing at his age banging hot chicks?"

Um... because he can? Is he supposed to say "gee, I'm 35, I think I'll just stay home and beat off from now on. Sex is for kids!"?


"You yourself said it doesn't take that long to separate the bimbos out. But I guess he just has to take them to bed to be absolutely sure."

"Taking them to bed" and finding out if they're bimbos are two different things. Once a guy's ascertained that she's a bimbo, he tends to be more likely to try to get with her. No messy worries about scaring off a girl he actually likes. Even if I don't want to buy the cow, I'll still drink her milk!

"You call this guy enlightened while he is following the most ancient urge in the book...to plant his seed in as many places as possible."

God, what a primitive piece of shit! Why would *anyone* have sex, ever? Jeez...

"You say this friend of yours is honest with his prey. Does he say something like this to them? "Hey baby! I think you're kind of a bimbo, but you're good looking enough, especially from the back so that when I leave with you my friends will be impressed. You will definitely not be hearing from me next week, but could I screw your brains out tonight? Are we clear on this and do you have any questions?""

Yeah, that's some real good game right there... I'm sure he'd be beating chicks off with a stick.

Did it ever occur to you that... *gasp*... some WOMEN like to have sex too? That they may go home with a guy with whom they have no intention of having a future relationship? Like I said, as long as he's not implying that he wants something more than a night or two of fun, there's nothing wrong with what he's doing. If she gets attached... her problem. It's not like she's gonna kill herself over him.

You need to get off your feminist highhorse and get with reality. We don't live in the '50s anymore.

2/16/2005 01:52:00 PM

 
Blogger alice said...

"Once a guy's ascertained that she's a bimbo, he tends to be more likely to try to get with her. No messy worries about scaring off a girl he actually likes."

Now there's an inspiring lifestyle!

But I know you're not about inspiration. That's so 50's

So you figure that this guy (everyman) might somehow blow it with a girl he really likes in a way that he won't with a bimbo. How would that be? Maybe it would be something he would do or say?

So he's really just scared. Is that it? He knows that the girls he really likes wouldn't really like him so he goes for the ones he doesn't like because they are better than not having anyone. And he can always console himself by thinking of them as bimbos instead of real people.

He might have to really try hard to get a really nice girl. And he might blow it with her as soon as he revealed who he really is.That's what you said, didn't you? He might have to work on his personality and his values.He might have to practice some self restraint. And he probably doesn't want to do that because that's so you know, 50's

Women can be sluts, for sure. But in my opinion it's often because they aren't wise. Women, for the most part want to be loved and cherished. Unfortunately, sometimes they give up the very power they have to make that happen by falling for really crummy guys. They need to pratice self restraint too. We all do.


Redneck called this guy a slut.
But you didn't like that, did you? Guys aren't sluts, they're just having fun. Only women are sluts and bimbos.

Hmmmm.

Thanks, Sirius for straightening me out. You certainly seem to know a lot more than I do about relationships than I do. I promise I'll take my meds from now on and not write any more feminist garbage.

2/17/2005 02:50:00 AM

 
Blogger alice said...

"Once a guy's ascertained that she's a bimbo, he tends to be more likely to try to get with her. No messy worries about scaring off a girl he actually likes."

Now there's an inspiring lifestyle!

But I know you're not about inspiration. That's so 50's

So you figure that this guy (everyman) might somehow blow it with a girl he really likes in a way that he won't with a bimbo. How would that be? Maybe it would be something he would do or say?

So he's really just scared. Is that it? He knows that the girls he really likes wouldn't really like him so he goes for the ones he doesn't like because they are better than not having anyone. And he can always console himself by thinking of them as bimbos instead of real people.

He might have to really try hard to get a really nice girl. And he might blow it with her as soon as he revealed who he really is.That's what you said, didn't you? He might have to work on his personality and his values.He might have to practice some self restraint. And he probably doesn't want to do that because that's so you know, 50's

Women can be sluts, for sure. But in my opinion it's often because they aren't wise. Women, for the most part want to be loved and cherished. Unfortunately, sometimes they give up the very power they have to make that happen by falling for really crummy guys. They need to pratice self restraint too. We all do.


Redneck called this guy a slut.
But you didn't like that, did you? Guys aren't sluts, they're just having fun. Only women are sluts and bimbos.

Hmmmm.

Thanks, Sirius for straightening me out. You certainly seem to know a lot more than I do about relationships than I do. I promise I'll take my meds from now on and not write any more feminist garbage.

2/17/2005 02:50:00 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms. Alice,

It would appear that you have an acute case of "chauvinist in your head" syndrome.
While I don't know this guy personally, I'm going to give you the perspective of the average guy (who's worth a shit). I know you don't believe that someone who could be so evil as to engage in casual sex could be a worthwhile person, but they can.


"So you figure that this guy (everyman) might somehow blow it with a girl he really likes in a way that he won't with a bimbo. How would that be? Maybe it would be something he would do or say?"

I'm not quite sure I understood what you are trying to say here, but anyway...
If he actually likes her he's not going to act like he just wants sex... because *he doesn't*. My exact point was that, once he realizes she's not worth an LTR, he doesn't care. He goes for it and doesn't really care one way or another. Best-case: He gets laid. Worst case: He doesn't.

With a woman that he's actually into, he's going to take it easy because he doesn't want her to think he just wants sex. If he acts that way- Best case: He gets laid and gets a great girlfriend. Worse case: He loses a great girl. The potential loss is too great so he plays it easy. Believe it or not, ALL GUYS DO THIS (well, all straight guys, anyway).


"So he's really just scared. Is that it? He knows that the girls he really likes wouldn't really like him so he goes for the ones he doesn't like because they are better than not having anyone. And he can always console himself by thinking of them as bimbos instead of real people."

Your logic is beyond laughable. He ACTIVELY SEEKS a long-term mate at all times, but that doesn't mean he can't have a little fun on that oft-difficult journey. Nor does he think of the girl as "less of a person", rather he thinks of her as "a girl who's not my type but who I'd still really love to get in bed".
It's not like he's raping her. We are talking about CONSENSUAL sex between ADULTS. She is fully capable of rejecting any advance of his.

2/17/2005 03:12:00 PM

 
Blogger sirius said...

Ms. Alice,

It would appear that you have an acute case of "chauvinist in your head" syndrome.
While I don't know this guy personally, I'm going to give you the perspective of the average guy (who's worth a shit). I know you don't believe that someone who could be so evil as to engage in casual sex could be a worthwhile person, but they can.


"So you figure that this guy (everyman) might somehow blow it with a girl he really likes in a way that he won't with a bimbo. How would that be? Maybe it would be something he would do or say?"

I'm not quite sure I understood what you are trying to say here, but anyway...
If he actually likes her he's not going to act like he just wants sex... because *he doesn't*. My exact point was that, once he realizes she's not worth an LTR, he doesn't care. He goes for it and doesn't really care one way or another. Best-case: He gets laid. Worst case: He doesn't.

With a woman that he's actually into, he's going to take it easy because he doesn't want her to think he just wants sex. If he acts that way- Best case: He gets laid and gets a great girlfriend. Worse case: He loses a great girl. The potential loss is too great so he plays it easy. Believe it or not, ALL GUYS DO THIS (well, all straight guys, anyway).


"So he's really just scared. Is that it? He knows that the girls he really likes wouldn't really like him so he goes for the ones he doesn't like because they are better than not having anyone. And he can always console himself by thinking of them as bimbos instead of real people."

Your logic is beyond laughable. He ACTIVELY SEEKS a long-term mate at all times, but that doesn't mean he can't have a little fun on that oft-difficult journey. Nor does he think of the girl as "less of a person", rather he thinks of her as "a girl who's not my type but who I'd still really love to get in bed".
It's not like he's raping her. We are talking about CONSENSUAL sex between ADULTS. She is fully capable of rejecting any advance of his.

"He might have to really try hard to get a really nice girl. And he might blow it with her as soon as he revealed who he really is.That's what you said, didn't you? He might have to work on his personality and his values.He might have to practice some self restraint. And he probably doesn't want to do that because that's so you know, 50's"

The world in which you live is so distorted I don't know where to begin. Suffice to say that you lack a basic understanding of modern relations.

"Women, for the most part want to be loved and cherished."

And guys like to have someone to love and cherish. That doesn't mean that they're against sex for it's own sake or that all women are either. You hold a very sexist view of women. And no, it's not ok just because you are one yourself.

"Guys aren't sluts, they're just having fun. Only women are sluts and bimbos."

I never said this. Of course there are guy sluts- Don Juan, por ejemplo. These are the guys who lack any respect for the women they're bagging. EC's buddy does not sound like this kind of guy, just someone who realizes that sex doesn't have to come with strings attached.

2/17/2005 03:13:00 PM

 
Blogger alice said...

"The world in which you live is so distorted I don't know where to begin. Suffice to say that you lack a basic understanding of modern relations."

Sirius,

First of all, you have no idea about the world I live in.

I do understand modern relations and behaviors. I just don't accept all of them and I don't have to. I have standards which are important to me. These standards have been formed over my lifetime. I have thought them over carefully and I stand by them no matter what anyone thinks of them, unless of course I am convinced that I am mistaken.

I certainly would never make an unsolicited comment about someone else's sex life, but I thought opinions were allowed here.

I think we have come to the point where we'll need to agree to disagree. Good luck on your journey.

2/17/2005 07:52:00 PM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

One married friend of mine talks about how fun it is when his wife and kids go out of town for a couple of days. Of course, he loves the family, but , as he puts it, "there's nothing like getting back to your gorilla roots. I don't shower or clean anything. I just wallow around the house watching TV, drinking beers, and generally being lazy." His point is that the lifestyle required to keep a lovely wife and to be a father to two kids is quite a bit of work. It pushes him quite a ways from him, shall we say, "natural" tendencies.

Same goes for my fried, the slut. His *desire* is a long-term relationship aaaand he knows that he'll have to behave differently with the right girl than he does with a girl he doesn't have deep feelings for. I think this is very normal. In fact, I'd say that someone who behaves differently is more the exception than the rule.

For my part, I can honestly say that the desire to convince my wife to commit to me for the long-haul has brought out the best in me. I am not who I was when we met. But that doesn't mean I am living a lie. It only means that my desire to win her love forever motivated me to adopt the kind of lifestyle that would make that happen. I have changed *on purpose.*

But if I were to suddenly get divorced and be childless (shiver at the thought), it's likely that I'd revert back to the way I was before marriage - at least for a while. It'd be like, "what's the point in behaving all domesticated if I have no one to behave that way for?"

In Alice's own words (from the Charlotte Simmons post):
"Boys want to have sex. Girls want to be loved. Boys are willing to learn to love because they want to have a girl. Everything is a trade-off. Everything is quite nicely balanced."

2/17/2005 10:30:00 PM

 
Blogger Chris Wilson said...

Oh yes, and a bit of housekeeping.

Though this is not a hard and fast rule, I'd like to ask that we focus our comments on *ideas*, not the people who put them forward. If I put forth an idea that you think is senseless, feel free to blast it. Take it apart. Have no restraint. Make fun of it. Humiliate it. Whatever. It's all fair game, and it's all constructive.

But when comments are aimed at commenters, the whole thing falls apart. We're all different. We all bring our own experiences, educations levels, and perspectives to these discussions. It's important to me that we maintain respect for one another, while having no mercy on the comments we make.

Examples -
"Oh my Goodness! You've gone off the deep end. Now you are giving advice about the size of boob jobs. Are you sure you are qualified?"

This is mostly about the idea and only lightly about me. Totally in bounds, in my book.

"The world in which you live is so distorted I don't know where to begin."

Foul. Sirius, your comments on this post are on the money. No need to taint them with what comes off as an ad hominem attack on Alice. I don't think you mean it this way, but again, we're all different, which means we all interpret the written word through our own lens. A more palatable, and equally powerful, version of the same comment might be:

"I really can't relate to your logic at all. Your ideas are INSANE! From my experiences, here's how things are *really* happening..."

But hey, I don't want to be a censor. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

2/18/2005 12:46:00 AM

 
Blogger alice said...

Sirius,

While I know we disagree, it has occurred to me that I have probably missed the point I have been trying to make. You have reacted violently to my criticism of male behavior. My concern is not so much with male behavior as the repercussions of it. My real concern is for the female.

I react just as violently when I hear a girl or woman called a chick (not so bad) a bimbo (pretty bad) a slut or a cum dumpster (really, really bad). It is because I know that more often than not, she is none of these. She is a real person with real and deep feelings…..feelings which can be hurt very badly. And I would venture to say so badly that she might try to harm herself.

Now I agree with you that the buyer needs to beware. But so often these consentual sexual encounters occur under the influence of drugs and alcohol. They also can occur when the girl really does like the guy and thinks he really likes her. She is the one who is pretty devastated when she doesn’t hear from him again or hears him refer to their sexual encounter as “getting over on her”.

A lot of the way you are experiencing sexual relations is a result of the sixties revolution when women asserted that they were just like guys and could take everything on the chin. But I believe this is not the case and time has born this out. Women and men are inherently different.

I think being a parent has given me a whole new perspective on all of this. My chief aim in life is to protect and prepare my child for life out there. I am not affected by the new ways of doing things, but I am increasingly aware of a callousness in young men. I see it on TV (yes I have one). I see it in my friend’s sons. I blame a lot of this on the lack of wisdom in young women. You see, I think women really do hold the keys to the kingdom, but they have to know that.

I guess I would ask that the next time you are tempted to think of a young woman as an object (bimbo, etc.) you might instead realize that some day that person could be your daughter. It’s about respect and I daresay a little compassion.

Idealistic, yes. But since we are all trying to be enlightened cavemen it may be worth the effort.

2/18/2005 01:17:00 PM

 

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